Keith Olsen, May 8 - 21, 2000
When the White album became such a success, how did things change for you? You were just as unknown as Lindsey and Stevie back then, weren't you? Did you immediately become in demand? (Tracy Garner)
I had done about 20 albums from artists like Aretha Franklin- Amazing Grace to Iko Iko- by Dr. John... plus the James Gang and a few others... old stuff that was when I worked at CBS as a "staffer".
It's wonderful that you have kept in touch with Stevie. When did you part ways with Fleetwood Mac? Were you involved with them at all after your production duties on the White album were complete? (Tracy Garner)
I'm sorry to have to say this but we parted ways when FM didn't honor the contract they had entered into with me regarding royalties.... it's all water under the bridge... I just wish greed had never entered the picture.
Did you sequence the White album? A fellow Penguin-junkie pointed out the beautiful transition of Rhiannon into Over My Head. That is amazing. How do you produce a song like Landslide? Is it just a matter of knowing when additional instrumentation is not needed? (Tracy Garner)
Remember, Less is More.....I worked mastering at Kendun Mastering for days on the record.....
HI, Thanks for taking the time. Everyone is asking Mac/Stevie questions, which I guess makes sense, but I have a question about Heart. You produced their "Passionworks" album which has long been a favorite of mine. Why do you think it wasn't a bigger hit, it was way better than the previous album they had done! And have you worked with Ann and Nancy since or would you want to. It seems to me that if Ann and Nancy teamed up with Stevie for an album it would be incredible!! Thanks again! (Allen Chapman, Stafford Springs, Connecticut)
Ann and Stevie are friends... and I did work with Ann again with "Almost Paradise," the love theme from Footloose.... a duet with Mike Reno.... a number 1 hit in I think 18 countries.... Passionworks was the group's last record on Epic.... the last thing a label wants to do is build up an act for the next label to own..........
Hi Keith~ Thanks so much for doing this Q&A, I was so excited when I found out you would be doing this, and thanks to the Penguin for making this possible........ok questions......What did you think when you first heard Stevies voice and watched her sing......did you think, at that time, she would become the huge star she was/is, the "Queen of Rock and Roll",& adored my millions? Did you tour with the band when they backed up the FM "White" album? If yes, what comes to your mind when you think of those times on the road with Fleetwood Mac? One more....did you and Stevie talk about her solo project "Bella Donna" before it went into production, did she try to recruit you into the producer seat? Thanks again for doing this Q & A, I have really enjoyed reading your responses so far........Good Luck and take care. THANK YOU, KEITH. (Rikki Miller, St. Joseph, Missouri, USA)
[Many of the first questions were answered above]
Hi Mr. Olsen! Thanks for taking the time out of your schedule to answer frenzied questions from a bunch of Mac freaks, :-). I was wondering, have you read any of Javier Pacheco's (former Fritz member) question and answer session? You say you told Stevie and Lindsey that Fritz would hold them back (a mild way of saying they sucked)...it was interesting having heard Javier's comments before yours...that the rest of the band, he especially, didn't have the right "look," and that his class, race, and other factors caused the eyes of Los Angeles producer types like yourself to sort of glaze over, as it were, and not recognize their talent. Do you have any comments? Care to defend yourself? Thanks! (Lisa Grilli, Bloomingdale, Illinois, USA)
History tells the truth.... no need to defend..... it was never a class, race or look thing... the bottom line is there are thousands of bands out there...... and this was not one to go to bat for, stick out your neck for, put your own time and money into..... Experience says that I didn't "glaze over" instead I really looked hard into all aspects.... I think I found the talent.... and by chance put them into the right organization to get their talent heard.
Perhaps I should disguise my name at this point :p How has your soundtrack work differed from producing an entire album? Do you normally get an opportunity to see the film before production begins? (Tracy Garner, Atlanta, Georgia, USA)
When doing an entire film the director gets together with you give you guidance on the direction of each cue... in a typical film there could be 60 to 70 minutes of cues.... your job is to tie scenes together, set a mood, convey a feeling, raise the level of excitement... Yes I'd say it's quite different... the pictures are first... In record production the music is the only picture....
What prompted your 'step back' from producing? Were your other interests too all-consuming? (Tracy Garner)
I felt that 5.1 surround will be the NEW THING.... and I wanted to be totally up to speed on the process... also there comes a time in your life when it's not fun going into the studio with a "guitar" player that knows everything there is to know about guitar and "his" sound at age 20..... And experience means nothing... how foolish, eh?
Is there any current artist/group you would like to produce who you haven't worked with yet? (Tracy Garner)
Sure there is always artists out there that I like.... I would love to work with 3rd eye blind, Allanis, Sheryl, maybe even Korn.... I enjoy all genre's of recorded music.... and can offer my expertise to these and other artists... but right now I'm in up to my eyeballs with Digital Electronic Design.... my other obsession.
Hi! Thank you for taking the time to do this Q & A. I've enjoyed reading your responses so far. One thing that caught my eye was when you mentioned that you produced Joe Walsh's The Confessor. The title track on that album is simply amazing! There are so many parts to it. Did Mr. Walsh already have it worked out like that before production? Or did it kind of "grow"? Is Mr. Walsh as crazy/funny in "real life" as he is in concert? Thanks! (Kathy, Mililani, Hawaii)
I think just the phrase "keeping up with the Jones" describes the man.... The confessor was just an accoustic guitar piece.... all other parts were contructed in the studio, some by me, some by Joe.... It was a long and arduous project.. Joe likes to make it up as he goes along.... Lyrics were sone the day of vocals for each song... a lot was written out in his trailer... but that's another story...
There was something I noticed about the Buckingham Nicks album: There were a lot of people from Delaney & Bonnie & Friends on the album (e.g., Jim Keltner and Ron Tutt). Was this a conscious decision (i.e. you wanted to make them then next Delaney & Bonnie), or was it based more on the fact that they were the usual L.A. backing musicians? The reason I bring up the "Delaney & Bonnie" factor is that it seems weird that a duo who was really untested would have musicians of THAT caliber on their record. (Steve MacDougall, Columbus, Ohio, USA))
They were the best players in town... you know the best drum sounds are in the phone book.......... get a great drummer and you get a great drum sound and part...... just make the right call.
First of all, I was wondering what instrument (or sound) is used at the end of the two versions of Crystal -- does the Buckingham Nicks version use an oboe? I was just curious. Also, do you have any idea what the inspiration behind the song Lola My Love was? Or was it just a convenient name to use lyrically? Thanks so much for doing this Q&A ... I've really enjoyed reading the responses. (Farrah, Whitestone, New York, USA)
Yes it was an oboe.... and yes it was just a neat sounding name. no deep internal meaning... like with a lot of music, certain words sing well, certain sounds give a good foundation.... there's the reason... not to "make a statement" etc. etc....
Hi Keith, thank you for taking the time to do this. There is so much I could ask you! I would love to see you and Stevie team up again in the future! Knowing Stevie for as long as you have from the early days, through the difficult times up until today, I was wondering if you could shed some light on a) How Stevie has changed and grown as a person, and b) how Stevie has grown as an artist. Thanks again and have you ever come up to Vancouver? (Shane, Vancouver, British Columbia, USA)
I was in Vancouver 6 weeks ago. Stevie has basically grown up.....she opens her mouth and now it just comes out... without any conscious thinking about it.
Hi. When Lindsey and Stevie lived with you, did they do any 'couple' type things? Thank you so much and good luck in your work. (Laura, Pennsylvania, USA)
Other than the obvious????? Yes they went to movies... Stevie would cook, etc etc
Hello again Mr. Olsen! I was wondering what you thought about the cover for Buckingham Nicks? And if Stevie and Lindsey discussed what they thought about it with you? If so, can you tell us any comments or anger...etc...on Stevie and Lindsey's part? (Jensen, Larksville, Pennsylvania, USA)
Laurie Sullivan had the idea to do this shoot in B&W and hand color just the feather.... Both of them liked the idea, I thought it was great... I think only Stevie's dad thought it was tasteless....
Hi, Keith, thanks for taking the time to put up with us. I'm gonna shift gears from the usual questions. I own quite a number of albums that you've produced and I don't hear a signature "Keith Olsen sound", in the way that you can tell a Phil Spector, George Martin, or Jeff Lynne production from a mile away, regardless of the artist. Am I just not hearing "your sound" or does it depend on who the artist is as to what kind of "sound" is needed at the time? (Steve Denison, Long Beach, California, USA)
A producers job is to be a vehicle to get the artists creativity on tape.... I do have a "signature" sound........ you know the sound of the artist.... that's the hard one to get a handle on.
Mick's book and numbers of magazine articles, most of them stored here on the Penguin, are the source of much of my info on Fleetwood Mac. There is one story about Stevie in Mick's book that just cracks me up. It is the one where she is working but Lindsey is not and he's having his friends over and they're all smoking grass or something and she comments that she used to trip over their bodies while she cleaned house and they'd ask her why they felt so bad the next day!! The way she says it it is funny. Was this while Stevie was cleaning your house? Were all these guys in your house when this happened? Did you ever meet either the Nickses or the Buckinghams? The families I mean? (Vianna, Alexandria, Virginia, USA)
No, this was not my house..... and yes I met some of the families...
What was the first song you ever heard Stevie/Lindsey ever sing live (with or without Fritz)? And what are your favorite songs of theirs as: 1) Buckingham Nicks, 2) Fleetwood Mac, 3) Stevie Solo, and 4) Lindsey Solo Thanks for all your contributions! (Kelly A. Conroy, Phoenix, Arizona, USA)
1) Buckingham Nicks - Frozen Love
Hi Keith!!! Looking back to when you first knew Stevie & Lindsey, were you able to see that one day they would be as successful as they are? Obviously they are both extremely talented (I've witnessed it myself!), but did you have any idea that they would hold their audiences so much in the palm of their hands and that people would go so crazy over their music? Also, if the Mac were to do another album and you were given the opportunity, would you work with them again? Thanks so much!!!! (Stephanie, Youngstown, Ohio, USA)
I don't know.... I don't think our styles of production really melt together today... I like to get stuff done RIGHT NOW.... make decisions RIGHT NOW...
~Hello Keith~ Thank You for your time here~I have listened to the Mac since the 70's and have collected their music over the years. Been going to their concerts since the Rumours Tour. It was a great treasure finding the Buckingham/Nicks album several summers ago in a used record shop in Seattle. I can relate to the lyrics written by Stevie throughout her career. Her tone. Her presentation, a very powerful presence. I write as well & often I set the tone & flow of the verses to Stevie's style. I sing only for pure enjoyment of how it feels to have feelings turn into words & sound. I would like your advice on how I might go about getting a strong female performer such as Stevie, Ann Wilson, Sheryl Crow to take an interest in recording & performing some of my material? Knowing they all write their own stuff, do you believe they would take an interest in recording an unknown Poet's work? Being very selective & protective of my lyrical verses, I am not comfortable with just finding a local band or up & coming band to perform my words, not just for the sake of having my lyrics come alive, maybe I am being unrealistic here, but I have always been true to the Poet's heart & vision. I am a Dreamer. Thank you, again for your interest in being a part of this forum & medium. (Raven, Washington, USA)
You want to enter the long and hard road to song writing and publishing... you know what they say... what's the first thing a songwriter says to you????......Hello, may I take your order??
Thank you for answering our questions. I have several varied inquiries: Did you foresee Richard Dashut becoming a producer? (Les, San Diego, California, USA)
No, I didn't expect Richard to be credited as Producer... since I knew him only as a beginning engineer... Congrats to anyone that can break through to the credit side.
Loved your answer about getting on the "collective cases" of the hold ups on Buckingham Nicks in cd form! Hey, if you got that kind of clout, can you put a bit of a push in for Lindsey's new album?!!? (kidding . . . I think!!) ;o) Have you heard any of it?
I appreciate what you had to say about not wanting to take 2 years of your life to produce an album . . . but that "FM White" album was a bit of a fluke in terms of speed, right? (Susan, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA)
No, it wasn't a fluke that the album took such a short production time.... 3 months is pretty normal... Direction and guidance does wonders to the pace of a project.
Another question: Mick's book, "My Life and Adventures in Fleetwood Mac" describes the early days of Stevie and Lindsey . . . pages 148-155 and your early contact with the new Fleetwood Mac. Is that fairly accurate from your point of view? (Susan)
I never read Mick's book, sorry I can't comment.
Final question, since FM had an interest in Buckingham/Nicks, and you clearly did as well, did any of you attend that last Burmingham, Alabama show that sold out 6000 seats and manage to tape it? Thank you for taking questions from us Fleetwood Mac fans! This is great reading! :o) (Susan)
No, I wasn't there.
Hi again, Mr. Olsen...and thanks for listening to our ramblings, ;-). On with my question...based on some of your previous answers, it sounds as though you don't exactly approve of spending long amounts of time in the studio...that the creative vision should be well-developed before venturing into the studio. That said, do you have any apprehension about how Stevie's and Lindsey's upcoming solo projects may sound? Do you suspect that they are somewhat aimless at this point, and do you think that this will be evident in their finished products--based on your experience as a producer? Thank you! (Lisa Grilli, Bloomingdale, Illinois, USA)
The creative vision is embedded within the song, and its structure.... the most important elements of production are in THIS order....1. Song 2. Performance of that song 3. Sound PERIOD! You can have a hit with a great song even if it sound like c--p, if you have a great performance, you have a bigger hit....even if it sounds like c--p, BUT then if you have a great song, performance, and sound.... you have records that are huge..... This is not rocket science... we're not re-inventing the wheel.... we're taking our opinion of what is a great song.... capturing that great performance....(which in the case of FM really doesn't take that long).... and using the tools available to us as artists/engineers/producers to make it sound great. For a pro in the field with good ears the sound part is really quite easy.
Hello Keith, first of all I'd just like to say thankyou for doing this--I'm sure we ALL appreciate it. I would just like to know, how did you get into the business of producing, mixing, etc...I have aspired to be a producer for about year now, and do you have any advice on how to get involved or some just general advice? Thanks a bunch. (Monica, Oregon, USA)
Education, education, education.... first Music ED. then Electronics, thenFilm school or Broadcast school.... this will give you the background to start.... then it's tons of work and a lot of it is free, then the best in the field seem to rise to the top.
I am a big fan of record producer Norman Petty. Are you familier with his work i.e. Buddy Holly, The fireballs, Buddy Knox? I know Lindsey liked 50's rock. (Tom Kirby, Roswell, New Mexico, USA)
All of his work was the real deal... you know, no tricks, just song and performance.
Any comments on the old rock n roll era? (Tom Kirby)
Old rock and roll is that when rock began.... the 50's or do you mean 60's.... I was in a touring rock band in the 60's called the Music Machine... we had a hit called Talk Talk... 1:56 of pure energy......
Hello Keith!! My question is this. During the recordings of the RAL sessions, There were songs NOT on the album (one more big time rock and roll star....Mirror Mirror....1000 Days, etc.) Did you have anything to do with the Pull of them and does the producer give more insite to what goes on the album and what comes off?? Thanks again so much for doing this!! :-) (Shawn Collins, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA)
As I left the project for reasons answered before.... I really don't know anymore.
Hi again! I was just thinking about the fact that you let Lindsey and Stevie stay at your house... was this a common thing for you to do for an artist at that time? Or did you just have a lot of confidence in them? Thanks! (Kathy, Mililani, Hawaii)
This was the only way that we could continue putting together the B/N package.
Keith, Thanks so much for answering my previous questions. I am loving the answers and they are giving me more insight into the band. You saw Lindsey and Stevie together I guess through the White Album. Were there any signs of the break up that was about to come? (Vianna, Alexandria, Virginia, USA)
Emotional times were on the horizon.... they were there before too.... working together in a band and road love is really hard.
What about John and Chris? Did you see signs of a drinking problem with John? Were there signs of that break up? (again during production of White Album?) (Vianna)
Not drinking anymore than any other Englishman at the time.
Keith, What memories can you share when. you were a member of The Music Machine ? Also, what was the all black clothes and one black glove look about ? Loved the songs "Talk Talk" and "The People in me" !! (Steve Elliott, Arlington, Virginia, USA)
Black clothes during the "flower power" era.... hey let's be different. The glove was just to make us look even more like Dr. NO...... do you realize how hard it is to play with a glove on????? I had to cut out the fingers and glue the rest of the glove to the top of my fingers... then use a magic marker to "black" out the rest of my hand........ now I have no hair on my fingers on my left hand.
You mention "pre-production meetings" a few times in previous responses. What, in detail, is involved in a pre-production meeting?? (Steve Denison, Long Beach, California, USA)
Pre-production.... really means rehearsal... putting down your ideas, the artist's ideas, onto paper.... onto cassette, just to give you an outline of where each song is going to go.... build the foundation that everyone agrees upon....
I'm a bit confused in regards to your making the digital master of the Buckingham Nicks album. Did you digitally record the individual tracks per song in order that it eventually could be remixed, or the final two-track master mix that was digitally recorded? (Steve Denison)
When I said I made a digital master.... this was a few months ago ... I took the TWO track mixes..... and just transfered them to CD... using Appogee UV-22 HDCD algorythm.
Are there songs that are still songs "in the can" from the first Buckingham Nicks sessions that didn't make the album? If so, any that could be used as "bonus tracks" on an eventual (?) commercial release? (Steve Denison)
No, we only cut what we wanted to keep.... we didn't have the budget to overcut.
I have a 45 of "Crying In The Night" that is a totally different mix than the album (additional vocals, electric slide guitars, etc)...was that a remix of the same take as on the album, or a different take altogether?? (Steve Denison)
Same take just with new stuff on it... Lindsey, Waddy and I went in the studio and did the work.... boy, I'd forgotten all about that.... until you asked the question.
If you were to ever produce another Fleetwood Mac album, would you do it? (Dani Worster, Johnston, Rhode Island, USA)
If I said yes, then I would put my heart and soul into it.... If I said no.... well then, I wouldn't be doing it..... would I......??? (with Spinal Tap English accent) ha ha
Hi Keith! While I agree with everyone else here that your work on the "White Album" and the "Buckingham Nicks" (one of my Top 20 albums of all time!) is brilliant, I wanted to touch base on some of the other artists you've worked with. Any interesting stories/thoughts/opinions and or reviews on: 1) Kim Carnes, 2) Heart, 3) Pat Benatar, 4) The Babys, and 5) Nickey Barclay?
Finally, I just want to say I have always heard a Keith Olsen "sound" in your work....and I miss it! Back to the studio, Keith (maybe with someone like Rosanne Cash, Carly Simon or Martha Davis?)! Take Care and thanks for all the great music! (Jef Fazekas, Newport Beach, California, USA)
Thanks for the rave.......
Hi, it's the Space Needle nut again.. i was just curious if you have any funny stories about things that happened during the recording of Buckingham Nicks. Also, did Stevie or Lindsey indulge in practical jokes? If so what kinds of things did they prefer? hahaha i like jumping out from behind corners and scaring people. In case you were wondering yes, I am a goofy college kid. Thanks again! (Jessica Leigh Badten, Santa Barbara, California, USA)
No, they didn't indulge much... I try to keep the sessions light so you PLAY music not WORK at it.... During the Benatar sessions I did dress the studio tech up into a frogman outfit and have him jump out from behind a wall.... screaming..... Where's the ocean? ..... to this exclamation Pat calmly pointed WEST and Towards the door.
In a previous answer you said: "Stevie wrote some in my house... in her house... then in my next house...It's hard to say... I remember her playing a bit of Landslide for me as she cried in my back room..." Why was she crying? (Jo, Larksville, Pennsylvania, USA)
She would always get pretty emotional as she would write .... Specifics.... I can't remember.
Hello Mr. Olsen...Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. We are all really loving it. I have been a fan of your work for many years and especially am partial to the production of Pat Benatar's "Precious Time" Album. My question...What, of all your production work are you yourself most happy with? Thanks. (Jes, Potomac, Maryland, USA)
You know the beginning guitar solo on Precious Time (the cut)-- now there's a neat sound.... and that long delay that's in time with the music.... was hard to do.... We did it by putting two 2 track analogue machines together and ran a loop of tape between them.
Hi ! Being a friend of Stevie's & knowing her do you think that she will continue putting out albums and touring for many more years ? Thank you. (Debbie Mouton, Atlanta, Georgia, USA)
Depending on the success of this upcoming album she will decide on the depth of her commitment to continue recording.
Hi! I loved your input about Stevie and Lindsey during the pre-Dance MTV/VH1 Behind the Music series. Did you get to talk to them during the Dance tour? Did you see any of the shows? And, if you did...did you feel a shift in everyone's relationship...from leftover feelings of anger to the healing that the tour seemed to bring about? Thank you. (Regina, Bronx, New York, USA)
I saw Stevie when she was in LA... some feelings of healing.... but some are thinking that what they are doing now is more important than FM.
Keith, I know you've heard a lot of guitarists in your career with all the production you've done. Can you give me a list of who YOU believe the FIVE best are/were ??? Would you include Lindsey in any list of great musicians?? How about Stevie and her magical voice ??? (Glen, Chicago, Illinois, USA)
Best Guitarists that I've worked with:
Hi, Keith! You're comment about "those two voices" coming together the way they did... I absolutely agree. I hear it on many a Mac recording and think of your quote. Do they know you're doing this? (Sharon, Buffalo, New York, USA)
I don't know if they know that I'm doing a Q&A..... But history shows that anytime you look back at what really happened during a creative period of time.... all aspects of it... it should help to set the stage again for another "creative" period.....
Hi again Keith :) Can you tell me a little bit about yourself? Are you married? Kids? What instruments do you play? Do you still play on a regular basis? (Tracy Garner, Atlanta, Georgia, USA)
I'm married to the love of my life, I have 2 wonderful girls, one is 19 the other 13, I play bass, guitar, keyboards, all of the preceeding are, shall we say, not to performance level..... That means I know better than try to compete with the PROs on those instruments. I use the piano to arrange.
I read in Mick's autobiography that the master tapes for the White album were lost for a short time...what happened? (Tracy Garner)
I have no idea.... the multi-track masters were sent to Warner Bros.... by me at the end of the mixes....
Is it true that there was a lot of cocaine in/around the studio during the recording of the White album? (Tracy Garner)
There was a lot of external stimuli in every studio, office, radio station, lawyers office.. etc etc back then.... it was everywhere.
Hi Keith, I have one more question that I'm not sure if you'll answer. One, does Lindsey Buckingham have a fan club? And is there anyway of either meeting him or getting in touch with him I have of couple of musical ideas and I wouldn't mind if he listened to them. Thanks a lot for answering my previous questions! I Love Your Work!!! (Dani Worster, Johnston, Rhode Island, USA)
You would have to bring up that stuff with him.... I can't help you there.
Hi again, I was wondering how did you achieve that crisp drum sound on the Fleetwood Mac album? it sounds really great. (Tom Kirby, Roswell, New Mexico, USA)
Plastic Puke..... no really...... We taped that soft plastic puke on the snare as a "mechanical" gate.... whenever Mick would hit the snare the "soft plastic" would lift up and tthe drum would ring like crazy.... (top end) then as the plastic would lie down, the ring and snare rattle would diminish.... kind of linear level drop.... it was cool.
That was a pretty funny story about Stevie putting your car in a neighbor's bedroom. Is she always that uh... bad with cars? We read in another Q and A about her side swiping cars while trying to drive. Before her license expired did people joke about her driving abilities? hehehe would you say that it was a good thing that she let her license expire? (Jessica Leigh Badten, Santa Barbara, California, USA)
She was an OK driver .... all she needed to do was give it a little focus..... but when you're Stevie Nicks it's pretty hard to jump into your "chevy" and drive down to the 7/11...... you know?
Keith, A comment rather than question. It seems when you answered my first query about "not hearing YOUR sound", I meant that as a compliment, not a slam. It seems from your response that I offended you; if so, my apologies. As a fledgling producer myself, I find it difficult to keep my own fingerprints off what the artist is trying to accomplish. So, that's where I was coming from in that question. Thanks once again for taking your valuable time for this Q&A. (Steve Denison, Long Beach, California, USA)
No offense taken, I thought I was specific....
Hello, Keith! I have a bit of a different question today... I am an artist (really) working on my third album ... but something strikes me. I have a nice 8 track machine, with Dolby sound reduction and all. I've recorded all the basic tracks... but I'm having a hell of a time trying to get EVERYTHING down onto the amount of tracks I have. Any suggestions? (Also, a REAL quick question ... How does someone contact you if they are interested in your services? (I.E. producing, etc.)) Thanks! (Brian Larsen, Laurel, Maryland, USA)
8 tracks oh ya!!!!!... Remember the White album was cut 16 track.... to get it all down.... put drums in mono on a track, bass on another, guitars and keys on two tracks.... use the upper tracks and then bounce the giuitars and keys down to 2. Then you have 4 left to do vocals......bounce to 1, bgs bounce to 1, then 2 left over for final od's.... well if you do that you'll just have to plan ahead. Write Marty a personal e-mail, he'll get it to me and we'll talk... but I'll tell you now, I do only 1 project a year... and it has to be great!.